In this week's episode
- Time can drag, time can fly, but there's always one constant - we all easily spend too much time doing things that other people could be doing for us. Whether it's implementing your marketing, sorting finance or day-to-day tasks, Paul introduces you to a unique desk toy that can help you see time differently and ultimately transform your MSP
- Also on this week's show, did you hear the one about the MSP who also became a vendor because there was a gap in the market? Paul finds out from an MSP what it was like to create their own resellable cloud service and what 'learns' they can share
- Plus there's a question from a listener that hits the nail on the head - we know we need to do marketing, but how do we know when it's working?
Show notes
Episode transcription
Voiceover:
Made in the UK for MSPs around the world. This is Paul Green's MSP Marketing Podcast.
Paul Green:
Welcome to this week's show. Here's what's coming up today.
Phil Donoghue:
We simply couldn't find anybody who could provide the types of service and the levels of service that we needed to be able to deliver to our customers in the cloud space. It very quickly became apparent that what we were building would be beneficial to other MSPs.
Paul Green:
Plus, I'm going to tell you about a very clever way to track exactly where your time goes. And it's got a physical element to it, it's not just software. Plus, we'll be answering a listener question about how to know exactly when your marketing is working.
Voiceover:
Paul Green's MSP Marketing Podcast.
Paul Green:
Being too busy isn't something that just happens to you overnight. I think it's something that kind of creeps up on you slowly and the overnight feeling of, "I'm too busy," is actually the sudden realisation that you've become too busy. Now, this has happened to me a number of times in my life. It happened to me in the business I sold four years ago where, in fact, I think if I look at the moment I realised I was too busy and I started delegating more and outsourcing more and automating more, which is the DOA, the great acronym that I try and live my life by. That was the point at actually at which the business really, really took off. There were a number of things that happened at the same time, and that was one of them.
Paul Green:
Now, this business I started in 2016 and it was very much a lifestyle business for a couple of years. A little bit of fun. A little bit of income. It wasn't something I was taking too seriously because having come out of 10 years of really, really going for it and building a business, this was just something to keep me busy and just to pay the bills. And then a couple of years ago, we really started to get serious about this business and we've now got, I think it's around about 300 clients all around the world. We've got the podcast. We're churning out marketing left, right and centre. And when lockdown happened and I was suddenly trapped in a house with a then nine year old, that was when I really realised just how busy I'd become. And I started to delegate more, because I've got a team, and I started to outsource more and I started to automate more. We've done some very clever stuff with software in the last six months.
Paul Green:
But there was still a gap. A gap between a level of workload that I was comfortable with and feeling as though I was doing too much work. So, I started tracking my time and I'm going to tell you about the device that I used in the next part of the show because it's actually a clever idea I want to tell you about today. But I realised that I was spending way too much of my time doing tasks that really don't matter. Things that, ultimately, anybody could do in the business.
Paul Green:
There is a series of tasks in my business that only I can do. Only I can record this podcast. Only I can create content for the website because it has to be a specific quality of content. Only I can talk to our clients when we do our MSP Mastermind groups. Only I can sign off the content produced for our service, the MSP Marketing Edge, because these are all things that I have super powers in. I've developed... I'm going to sound like Liam Neeson now. "I've developed over a number of years, a series of specific skills." Wasn't Irish enough, but you get the idea.
Paul Green:
I've got these specific skills and only I can do that in my business. But there's a whole bunch of other things that I do that really I don't need to do. I don't need to answer emails. I don't need to play around with Facebook groups. I need to answer my clients in Facebook groups and certainly in our Facebook group with a thousand people in now, our MSP marketing one, I go in and contribute comments to. But I don't need to be the gatekeeper for that. I don't need to administrate it. I don't need to be the one to boot the idiots out when they start trying to plug something. I can get other people to do that.
Paul Green:
So, I recently hired a VA, a virtual assistant. It actually started as a desire to hire a full time job. And if you've put any kind of job application out recently, you'll know there are a lot of people looking for jobs right now. A lot of people. We were literally inundated and we interviewed and interviewed and interviewed, and I just couldn't settle on someone I was happy with. So, instead we went down the virtual route. Now I already use two or three virtual assistants. They tend to be one man bands and they tend to do specific functions. And I decided I wanted to get an Uber VA, a virtual assistant who could just oversee a whole series of things within the business. I went to a company called Timeetc. I think they're just pretty much UK based, but the idea is that they find virtual assistants for you. If the virtual assistant isn't quite right, then they get you a new one.
Paul Green:
And, in fact, it took three virtual assistants before we found someone I'm quite happy with. I've got a lady now called Christelle. She reads my email for me. She maintains the Facebook groups for me, and she just does a whole series of other admin things. Every single task now that lands in my inbox, the first question I ask myself is, "Do I really need to do this or could Christelle do this on my behalf?" Now, we've actually just taken on another VA. It's from the same company. We've just upped the contract a little bit. And this other VA has started doing our first line customer support. We have a knowledge centre and a support portal for our MSP Marketing Edge service and we've stuffed it recently with hundreds of videos and articles and help for our clients to help them actually implement their marketing.
Paul Green:
And again, we've introduced a ticketing system. Now, there are some things that I need to help with, third line. Essentially, I'm the third line support when it comes to marketing assistance for our clients. And then my colleague, James, he's our second line support. But neither of us really needed to be there doing the basic tickets. I know you'll understand this. This is your world, isn't it. When a client emails us to say, "I can't log in." That's a first line support task. A VA could do that for us. The same if someone can't find a resource or they've got a very basic question that we've actually answered in one of our videos or one of our articles.
Paul Green:
And this has completely changed everything, for me and for the business in a very, very positive way. Because what, of course, we've done is we've created more Paul time. And Paul, that's me, I'm investing that time back into the things that only I can do. So, I'm spending more time with my clients. I'm creating more content and I'm thinking more about the business. Which is great because I'm now sort of six to 12 months ahead in my mind of where we want to go and what we want to do next and how we can add more value to our clients.
Paul Green:
Now that VA is probably costing me around about £2000 a month or those two VAs. And the beauty of having them managed by someone else is, if they're not quite right, I can just replace them tomorrow. It's the same reason that my cleaner, I have a cleaner who comes to my house, and she's through an agency. And it just means that the day that she leaves or if I get fed up of her and I just want to swap cleaners, I haven't got to manage that person. Isn't that worth paying a little bit extra for, not to have to manage people? I know some people would rather keep the money and have complete control over the person. But the way I see is, I have got complete control. I've just outsourced finding that person and managing that person because those are things that I don't really enjoy doing anyway.
Paul Green:
So, here's a question for you. And this is a question I've asked you many times on this podcast. What are you doing that you really don't need to do? That someone else could do you on your behalf? And if you haven't got a member of your team, maybe you should look at hiring in some virtual assistants. Now, we figured out some time ago that rather than having one person and trying to laden lots of different tasks on them, it's better to hire specialists to do specialist jobs. I have now an entire network of freelancers and people on Upwork and Fiverr and PeoplePerHour who do specialist jobs for me. I've got a guy in, I think it's the Philippines or Singapore or somewhere, who turns InDesign files into publisher files and Canva files for me. A very, very specialist job and he does an incredible job at it and gets paid well for doing that job. But I wouldn't ask anyone else I know to do that because it's a very specialist job.
Paul Green:
It's why we have got different VAs doing different functions. One for customer support, one for freeing Paul up from stuff that he doesn't really need to do. I can see us taking on yet another VA down the line to add in something else that we want to add to our service. In fact, this is a great way to scale. You could do maybe exactly the same thing because maybe you can't outsource technical stuff. Well, we know you can, of course, with Continuum and Benchmark 365 and stuff. But if you didn't want to outsource those kinds of things, maybe you could outsource more of the admin. Maybe you could outsource more of the front line.
Paul Green:
Could you, in some way, have a nontechnical person doing first line support for you? Is that possible? If you were to analyse the tickets and see how many of the jobs could really be handled by anybody, could 80% of your work, your first line tickets that come in, could they really be sorted by someone very simply? They could do the password changes and the new users and then escalate everything else on. Almost like as a 0.5, rather than being first line, they're sort of half line support.
Paul Green:
We live in an incredible world where there is so many people out there who are willing to do stuff for you if you afford to pay them. And I think this whole COVID thing is actually added another level of people. There are more and more people, I'm sure, flooding into Upwork and Fiverr and going to places like these virtual assistant agencies and looking for work. There must be because unemployment rates are up. What are all these people doing? This is 2020. There is a great place for them to go and generate work now and it's online. And I think you'd be crazy, as a business owner, not to take complete advantage of that.
Voiceover:
Here's this week's clever idea.
Paul Green:
So I mentioned I'd started tracking my time. And to do this, I used a device recommended by a friend called Timeular. Now what makes Timeular different to Toggl and all the other time tracking apps that are out there is it actually contains a physical element. If you look at the website and you can find the link on the show notes for the podcast, or just go to Timeular.com. So, that's time U-L-A-R.com. And you'll see a video of a lady using a Timeular device. And what it is is an eight sided dice, quite a large eight sided dice that just sits on your desk. And the beautiful aspect of Timeular is you don't have to remember to flip in software when you move from one task to another, you just flip the dice. And, in fact, I've been using it for a couple of months now, it's become so common for me when I switch tasks that I reach out with my hand and I just move it almost without thinking.
Paul Green:
Right to the extent that when I had a working holiday a couple of weeks ago and I didn't take my Timeular tracking dice with me, for the first couple of days as I was working and I switched tasks, I actually reached out. It's almost like a phantom thing. It wasn't there, but it was so ingrained for me to reach out and flip it. So, I've got the Timeular here and I'm just going to... At the moment, we're creating content because that's what this podcast is. And if I go into my phone because it links to my phone by Bluetooth, then I can see in the Timeular app that, so far, I've spent 22 minutes and eight seconds creating content. I'm just going to flip that to something else. And right now we have flipped over to client work. I'm going to flip it over here. That's on Team Zooms. And let's flip it over onto this. That's tasks. Email. I'm just going to flip that back to creating content because I don't want to screw up my own figures.
Paul Green:
Now, what's beautiful about this is I've categorised all of the things I do into eight different tasks and I've actually colour-coded them. You don't have to do this, but I thought it would be a good idea to colour code them according to whether I wanted to do more of them or less of them. For example, I have red tasks. Now my red tasks are things that I want to do less of. That's email and messaging. And if I look at last week, I did six hours 43 minutes of email last week. That seems like a lot, doesn't it? Actually that's quite dramatically down on where it was a couple of weeks ago because, of course, I've now got a VA reading and categorising my emails for me so I can just focus on the most important things.
Paul Green:
Then I've got some yellow categories. Now, my yellow categories are things that they're okay to do, but I've got to make sure they're in balance and that's tasks. So, tasks are things that don't move the business forward, but things that just need to be done and it's client work. And I include in that the long Zoom calls that I do with my clients. And last week, if I look at that, I did eight hours 38 minutes of client work, which is okay because I had a couple of long Zoom calls with my clients last week, but I did 14 hours 17 minutes of tasks. So, I know now this week I've got to focus more on getting more of those tasks into other people's hands because the secret of those tasks is to delegate, outsource and automate as we were just talking about earlier.
Paul Green:
I have then got a number of green categories. The green categories, I can do as many of these as I want, as much of them as I want. Buying businesses is one of my green categories because that's one of my goals this year is to acquire a business later on this year. Communities is another one. So, communities for me is if I'm in my Facebook group or if I'm in the Tech Tribe or on LinkedIn and I'm actually building communities, building audiences of people. For me, that's a very important task that only I can do. And we do see a correlation between the amount of community building I do and the amount of new business that comes into the business. Creating content, which is what I'm doing right now, I can do as much of that as I want to. Project work, I can do as much project work as I want. Now, what's the difference between project work and task work? Tasks are things that just have to be done, but they don't necessarily move you forward. Whereas projects are things that move the business forward.
Paul Green:
We use software called BaseCamp to track all projects. And me and my team, we only put stuff in BaseCamp if it's project work, if it moves the business forward. So I know if I'm doing work in Todoist, which is my task manager, then I'm probably doing tasks, things that don't move the business forward. Whereas if I'm doing stuff in BaseCamp, I'm moving the business forward in some way. More BaseCamp stuff, please.
Paul Green:
And then finally, I've got Team Zooms. Now my team are completely remote. So, whenever we get onto a Zoom, we make sure that we have a fixed agenda. We don't just chat. We always have specific things that we want to talk about. But, for me, the more time I spend on Zooms with my team, again, the faster things move forward. And that's because I've got a great team. They're very motivated. They're very focused and it means that we all achieve a lot. Now you may not have Teams Zooms in your green category. Yours might be yellow, as in you've got to get the right balance of them. But that's the point of this. It's beautiful, Timeular, because you can set it up to track exactly what you want to track.
Paul Green:
I thought long and hard before my dice arrived about, "What kind of things do I want to track? What do I want to spend more time doing and less time doing?" And the insight from this has directly led to the hiring changes that I was talking about in the first part of the podcast. Those VAs wouldn't be working for me now if I hadn't tracked my time. The next stage for me now is to reduce the number of hours that I'm working overall.
Paul Green:
And especially with working from home, you can feel like you're working all the time, can't you? And yet, last week, I worked 36 hours and 40 minutes, which is pretty good. That's an average of five hours and 14 minutes per day. Now, I'm probably doing other work around this, but it's not physical sitting down work. I'm doing thinking. I do a lot of thinking when I'm running. I'm spending time with my daughter. It is, of course, the summer holidays so we're going out and enjoying ourselves a little bit. But I was quite pleased to see that, 36 hours and 40 minutes. Because a couple of weeks ago that was nearing 50 hours. And I had no idea that I was doing 50 hours a week. I knew I was doing too much, but when some thing is very, very specific and you can pin it down, you can start to do something about it.
Paul Green:
This Timeular thing costs around about 70 quid, something like that. You can get it pretty much all over the world. I believe it's completely revolutionised how I track my time. And as a direct consequence of that, it's completely affected the quality of the thinking I'm making about how to move the business forward.
Voiceover:
Paul's blatant plug.
Paul Green:
I've got this resources section on my website, which is absolutely packed with free stuff that you can use to improve your marketing. Some of the highlights, for example, we've got a couple of webinar replays on there about how to get more sales appointments and how to win new clients. Got a couple of guides you can download. One about transforming your MSP. Another one about 14 monthly recurring revenue services that we recommend that you resell. There is some recommended marketing books in there. There's some services that I recommend. It's just a whole bunch of stuff and we're adding to it all the time. It's completely free. You don't need to sign up for anything and you can get it on my website. If you go to paulgreensmspmarketing.com/resources.
Voiceover:
The big interview.
Phil Donoghue:
Hi, my name's Phil Donoghue. I own an MSP. And several years ago I was inspired to begin my own cloud distribution business.
Paul Green:
And that's why I wanted to get you onto the show, Phil, because it fascinates me when MSP see a very obvious and clear hole in the market and they're driven to start their own, become a vendor as it were to start their own side business to their MSP. So, you have got a successful MSP based in the United Kingdom. And you've also started this channel distribution business called Channel Host. What was the pain that you felt that caused you to actually go and set up this second business?
Phil Donoghue:
We simply couldn't find anybody who could provide the types of service and the levels of service that we needed to be able to deliver it to our customers in the cloud space. Our primary MSP started to develop those services for itself. It very quickly became apparent that what we were building would be beneficial to other MSPs.
Paul Green:
Because we've seen lots of MSPs do this. I mean, Andrew and Jean Eardley, who own an MSP again in the UK, they launched MSP Easy Tools, which is a toolkit that technicians can use to make their lives easier but, of course, they'll generate additional monthly recurring revenue for it. We've seen it with Help Desk Buttons, again which came out of an MSP in the States where they realise that physical help desk buttons were a really good idea. Do you think this is something that lots of MSPs have bubbling under, this desire to provide a better service? And do you think that that perhaps reflects on some of the services offered by some of the vendors out there?
Phil Donoghue:
MSPs are by nature innovative and creative people. So, we're problem solvers. We spend our daily lives solving problems. So, it's obvious that at some point, we're going to find better solutions that'll work for other people like us.
Paul Green:
Now it's one thing putting together a solution just for your MSP. It's obviously a completely different kettle of fish to go and make that solution scalable for partners, for other MSPs to use. What were some of the problems that you came across as you were transferring it into something that you could go on to sell?
Phil Donoghue:
Well, everything we built from the ground up was designed to be scalable, as per the nature of the way technology was going. Everything was housed in data centres. So, I guess the constraints in the early days were data centre space. How much of that do you take? How many servers do you need to provide the service?
Phil Donoghue:
And the great thing is, is what we built was actually scalable so that we created a model that said X number of new users for this service equals X number of new servers, X number of new support staff and all of that good stuff. It was all planned from the beginning to be scalable. And we had measurements all along the way to show when we needed to increase capacity.
Paul Green:
Is there a risk that as the owner of an MSP launching a second business, that actually your focus becomes split and that you're almost distracted by one business or the other. Have you found that? That the businesses compete for attention sometimes?
Phil Donoghue:
Certainly at my level. I've got two businesses to run. I do split my time between them but each business has its own resources and technical resources, commercial resources. We have a shared finance function and shared administration and that sort of thing so it makes us really efficient. But they do compete for time, but it's never really been an issue because each one is an independent business, which is resourced according to its needs.
Paul Green:
So, for an MSP that's listening to this right now whose got that idea, it's in their head and they're thinking, "Someone should do this." And maybe they are halfway through building their own solution and thinking of launching it. Would you advise them to go ahead and do it, or would you advise them to proceed with caution?
Phil Donoghue:
We've learned a lot of lessons along the way. So I would advise proceed with caution. The key aspect is finance. To build what's been built over the last almost 11 years, has been over a seven figure investment. So, not all MSPs are able or willing to put that kind of investment in. It takes a long time to get your return on investment as well. If you're going to build this properly, it takes several years to get your return back.
Phil Donoghue:
What we find with a lot of our partners is we have had those conversations with them and they've said, "Well, we could build this ourselves". My question is, "Do you really want to? We've already built it. It's a clear good commercial proposition. It works. It's reliable. You simply consume the services and pay for them as you need them and remove then when you don't."
Paul Green:
So why would you build your own?
Phil Donoghue:
When we first engaged with lots of potential new partners, that is a question they always ask, "Why shouldn't I build it myself?" We throw that right back and say, "Why should you?" It's incredibly expensive. It's not easy to get right. When we started this in 2009, we were almost the only people doing it. Now there's quite a few people do it and I can still, hand on heart, say that, "We think there aren't many that do it properly."
Paul Green:
Well, let's look at that then, Phil. Tell me what properly means. Tell me more about Channel Host and why partners switch to you and what the benefits are of using you versus one of your competitors?
Phil Donoghue:
The number one is our services work and they're reliable. And we work very closely with... We call people partners, not just resellers. We're not just aiming to sell you a product. We're in it to work with you for a long period. We've still got the first reseller that ever signed with us and they're still one of our most active. And very, very rarely once somebody has signed up and they become active, it's a little bit like the Pareto Law, 80% of our resellers sign up because they know that they want to sell these services, but don't always do something about it.
Phil Donoghue:
Unlike, a lot of our competitors, we've got people who will account manage them and work with them and find out why they're not selling their services. Is it a lack of knowledge? Therefore, we can fill in the blanks, maybe even with their hat on, speak to customers and then try and help them sell and try and help them close business because then we all win.
Phil Donoghue:
Other kind of USPs that we've got is our clear pricing policy. So, the industry seems to have set itself out to be a from price. So you can buy a hosted desktop from us from 35 pounds. It doesn't work. You need to add seven or eight different components in order to make it a full working solution. And by the time you've added all of those, you've almost priced yourself out of the market. Our pricing policy is very simple. We put a package for a service together that is everything it will need to work for a single price, so that you and your customer don't end up down the line with hidden extras and being hit for additional costs because you need a little bit more storage or a little bit more CPU. It's all delivered to work.
Paul Green:
Great, Phil, thank you. Tell us what your website address is.
Phil Donoghue:
Yeah, it's Channelhost.co.uk.
Voiceover:
Paul Green's MSP Marketing Podcast. Ask Paul anything.
Steve Macklin:
Hi, I'm Steve Macklin. My business is Pure IT. How do I know if my marketing is working?
Paul Green:
Great question, Steve, thank you very much. And there is kind of two parts of an answer to this. The first of it is to look at it scientifically and say, "Well, you measure your marketing by results. How many leads are we generating? How many of those leads are turning into prospects? And ultimately, how many clients do we have?" Because we don't do marketing for the sake of it. We do it to get clients. The only thing is with an MSP is most MSPs do very low levels of marketing without huge amounts of momentum and also your sales cycle is really long anyway. So, it's very hard to judge what it is that you're doing by just looking at the figures. In fact, I have worked with a couple of MSPs that have become almost disheartened because they have been doing a whole bunch of marketing and then, a month later, they might have 20 leads to show for it and maybe half a prospect but certainly nowhere near a client.
Paul Green:
And, of course, as we all know, people buy only when they're ready to buy. The challenge for you then is measuring your marketing in a way which keeps you going, in a way which makes you see, "Ah, this is paying off." But it's a long term investment. It's never going to give us instant results today. Because if you want to get instant results today, you have got to go and sell something online. You've got to have a widget and measure eCommerce sales and see how many dollars or pounds it costs you in buying traffic to the number of dollars or pounds that you can generate through an online sale. That's the only way to get instant results. Most B2B service sales, it's a much, much slower sell than that.
Paul Green:
The other side then is measuring engagement and looking at how are people engaging with your marketing? And engagement takes lots of different forms. It can take replies to promotional emails that you send out. It can mean likes, shares, and comments on social media content that you put out there. It can be how people respond and you call them. If you send someone to something in the post or direct mail and you send an email to them that's landing on the same day that the post lands and then you call them up the next day and you have a chat with them. Might not be you, might be someone doing it on your behalf. You can gauge a level of engagement based on the conversation that you've had. I did that as a series of experiments a number of years ago to test to see whether my phone people had a better response if we'd sent something to the prospect they were calling in advance and we did, quite dramatically.
Paul Green:
In fact, we discovered, that if we send them something and they've read it, or they've opened the email and clicked the link, my phone person is more dramatically likely to A, get through to the person and B, actually have a decent conversation with them. They might not get the outcome but there's a level of engagement there. It's the same reason why, back in my last business when I had three full time phone people, we only phoned people who had opened promotional emails and actually clicked the link to read the content. Because we discovered, fairly early on, that these people were more engaged. So, we were more likely to reach them and we were much more likely to actually one day do business with them.
Paul Green:
Oh, and by the way, I don't do that in this business so you're quite safe to keep opening my emails and clicking on links. If you're on my email list, we don't routinely phone people just because they're opening content. That was something we did under a different business model. But you get the idea here. Engagement really gives you a short term clue as to whether or not your marketing is talking to people about whether it's hitting those fears, those needs, those wants, which drive all of the B2B purchases that they make.
Paul Green:
I would put together a blend. I would look at something in the short term, you could measure it weekly, maybe monthly, what kind of engagement? How many shares have you had? How many likes? How many comments? How many phone calls that have been positive or maybe replies to promotional emails? Because even a reply to an email is a level of engagement. But then ultimately, you've got to measure your marketing by results. How many leads am I generating? And leads are people who are joining your list. They're joining your email list or they're joining your Facebook group, if you run one, or they're listening to your podcast or they're connected to you on LinkedIn. All of those are leads. But then out of that bunch of leads, how many of them are turning into prospects? And of course, ultimately, how many of them are turning into clients as well?
Paul Green:
I guess the other metric that you would measure, if you were measuring marketing to your existing clients as well, is how much additional monthly recurring revenue are you generating from marketing to your existing clients? That would certainly be a very important metric to track.
Voiceover:
How to contribute to the show.
Paul Green:
I love getting emails about the show and people giving me mostly positive, sometimes not so positive, feedback but I love it. And I do read every single one. My VA knows that any email from a listener about the podcast is something that I will want to see and she pops it in the Paul must read folder. So go on, just give me some feedback. What do you like about this podcast? What do you not like? What would you change? What would you like to hear more of? What do you want to hear less of? Just don't say me because that would be rude. Drop me an email.
[email protected].
Voiceover:
Coming up next week.
Speaker 5:
That's been a huge part of, I think, our success as an organisation is humanising our brand and showing faces because that's who we are.
Voiceover:
Podcast special.
Paul Green:
That's David Darmstandler, and he's joining me next week for an MSP Marketing Podcast special. The entire episode is dedicated to David's story and it's quite an inspiring one of how he's built up his MSP over a number of years. In particular, we're going to look at how he's recently transitioned from being just an MSP to adding on a true MSSP, a managed security services provider. And he is also going to tell us how he's acquired a number of different businesses over the years. There will be some advice in there for you if you're interested in acquiring businesses yourself, and also when you're ready to sell your MSP. So join me next week for that special edition. See you then.
Voiceover:
Made in the UK for MSPs around the world. Paul Green's MSP Marketing Podcast.
