SPECIAL: Fast Growing MSPs Do Just TWO Things Differently

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What's the difference between MSPs that are standing still right now and those that are rocketing ahead? It's a special episode today because there's only three months left of 2026, and I've actually got one of my colleagues as a special guest. He spent 10 years talking to MSPs about how to grow their business and he's going to share all of his brain with you right now. Powered by mspmarketingedge.com, Paul Greens MSP Marketing Podcast. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Hello, my name is Ben Smith. I work with Paul at the MSP Marketing Edge. [00:00:32] Speaker A: How has it taken so long to get you on the podcast? We've been doing this podcast, what, like seven years or something like that? I know, and it is a good question. And you and I have actually worked together a very long time, way longer than actually the MSP Marketing Edge has been around. We'll explore that in a second. But it's good to have you here today, Ben, because you talk to MSPs all day, every day, and you hear the good, the bad, sometimes you hear the ugly. Because your job, of course, is to help people with their growth, with their marketing and, and that means you've got quite a unique insight, I think, into what's happening with MSPs around the world right now. So do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about you and, and your background and how we came to work together and what exactly you do for us here in the MSP Marketing Edge? [00:01:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we've worked together for, was it 15 years now, Paul? [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Scary, isn't it? You had hair when we started. You didn't really. For Those watching on YouTube, Ben has no hair whatsoever. [00:01:25] Speaker B: This is a personal choice. People often say when they find out we've worked together that long, that I'm either good at what I do or that I've got some secret information on you. So they don't know that it's both at this stage. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:01:39] Speaker B: But, yeah, we worked together in the previous business, working with healthcare sector and opticians, veterinary practices and dentists. And then of course, we've been working together with the MSP Marketing Edge, where you do the podcast and all the fun, crazy stuff. And I speak with MSP owners all over the world and find out what they're looking to do with their business and if we can help them. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Exactly that. In fact, if anything, I, I have the fun and you do the hard work. [00:02:02] Speaker B: I, I enjoy it just as much. So it's, it's all good. [00:02:05] Speaker A: I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. Well, I know you do. I know you do for a fact. And, and actually you're talking to our existing members as well as new members who are looking to join us. You, because you do all the one to one consultations with our members, you do all of our onboarding. So essentially Ben is pretty much the only member of our team who loves being on a Zoom call all day long. Which is, which is, you know, I don't like being on Zooms. I prefer doing stuff like this. So. Because. And actually you, you and I, it was just you and me, wasn't it? If we go back 10 years to when we first started this business. And so you, you and I have been here right from the beginning. And that, that actually leads on to my first question, which is what have you seen change since in 2016-2026 in terms of how MSPs grow their business? So I don't mean from a tech point of view because we've all seen cyber security get bigger. AI, you know, came out of almost felt like nowhere two, three years ago. But in terms of what MSPs talk to you about and what's important to them, what's changed in the last decade? [00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah, good question. I think there's not been as much change as people are probably expecting to hear. I think the stories that people tell me are quite similar in terms of when MSPs are starting out. They grow to a certain point and then something happens. So that's been the same pretty much throughout the 10 years that we've worked with MSPS. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And that story, is it, is it the common story of I loved what I did working for someone else, but I wanted to do it for me, so I started up and then it's that, it's that three, four years of frustration and cash going up and down and trying to find the right staff and trying to find the right clients. You must hear that story all the time. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. That people want they can see an opportunity to do something better, something different, so they go off and they do that themselves. And depending on when we speak to them, whether they're still growing and looking to do that more, or whether they've hit some kind of ceiling, whether it's a real ceiling or one they've placed on themselves, is typically when they would engage in a conversation to find out what else they should and could be doing with the marketing. [00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So if you were to look at. Because you obviously talked to MSPs that are, you know, literally on day one, it's the owner is the MSP. And I know you also talk to sort of the 3,4 million revenue where there's an established team and senior leader, leadership team. Is there, is there, would you say, a sweet spot at which the, the life seems to be easiest? You know, is it perhaps when it's just you and two or three staff, or is it when you've worked yourself out of the business but you. But it hasn't grown so big that it's a monster, or is that a really difficult question to answer? [00:04:27] Speaker B: It is a difficult one because I think a lot of it will depend on the mentality of the business owner, whether they've got themselves out of one job that they wanted to get out of for so many years and they've replaced that with another job, effectively. It's just they're the boss this time. Or whether they've got big plans to push it much further than just being comfortable and they want to actually build something that's going to be bigger than them, that they can step back and watch from afar. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So we've done this special episode today, a to get you on the podcast because we've. We failed to do that in the last seven years, but also because this is coming out the last Tuesday of September in 2026, and that means somehow there's only three months left this year. October, November, December, that's 2026 done. As you get older, every year just seems to go faster and faster. What I thought would be interesting is to look at from your perspective as someone who spent 10 years talking to MSPs at every stage, what do you see makes the difference between those who are doing well and those who are feeling stuck? And let me define my version of doing well. My version of doing well is that you're achieving what you want to achieve. So I don't define doing well as big car, big house, kids, you know, kids at an expensive school. I mean, we all want those things, but. But often those aren't the things that drive us. So for me, doing well is you're living the life you want to live, doing the things you want to do with the people you want to do. You got enough time and money to do that. So. So what do you see as the. As the big factors that affect people that, that are doing well versus those that are feeling stuck? [00:05:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So if we look at the people who are stuck right now, typically the business owner is probably the Bottleneck that everything's going through them, they're slowing everything down. They're not looking to grow, you know, much bigger than what they've currently got to, or they just physically can't find the time or whatever the next lever is that they need to pull. I think a lot of the time those businesses are relying on referrals, massive referral. It's purely a reactive approach and referrals are great. Obviously doing a good job that their clients are happy, their clients want their friends to be happy and they refer people in. But the long term game is those referrals at some point will dry up. And if they don't have a plan, of course then that's going to be an issue down the line. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And in your experience, and I'm going to come back to bottlenet in a second. In a second. But in your experience that over reliance on referrals, is that a, is that, is that something way too many people have and they don't realize the referrals have dried up until it's, it's like, oh, it's been six months since we had a client. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Yes, a lot of people do that. And we talked about the top of the call. The, the typical cycle that people go through is they will win new business or find something that works. And because they keep those clients for so long and they tend to bring in new business when they're happy, that's just what people do. If they're happy, they're going to stay with you and they're going to probably refer to you. But the challenge is then that businesses rely on that their MSP get so used to getting new business through referral that they don't spend any time or enough time on building something outside of [00:07:24] Speaker A: that to build long term, that makes perfect sense. So in a second we're going to talk about what you would build and as we move into what successful MSPs are doing. But let's go back to the bottleneck. When you talk about the owner being the bottleneck, what are the symptoms that [00:07:39] Speaker B: you see of that kind of thing? If you look at an MSP owner, if they were to go away for several weeks or two weeks of time with no phone, no contact to the office, nothing at all, if any new business would, would arrive in the door. And if that's the case, then all the sales are coming through the business owner, which is a bit of a concern initially, particularly as you're looking to grow that business longer term. If all of the sales come through one person that becomes the main breaking point of the business. [00:08:07] Speaker A: That makes perfect sense. And what, what are the areas of the business? Does it affect if. Well, no, let me ask this question a different way. If the owner is a bottleneck in their sales, would you, do you normally expect to see that they are a bottleneck in operations, you know, in senior tech decisions, in sort of every aspect of the business really? [00:08:27] Speaker B: I think quite often that could be the case and the owner wants to still be involved in everything. And again, that can come from a mindset as to where they've come from and how they've slowly grown the business. Another time it can just be. If we're talking about marketing, growing their business. Sales is, is the main point that we tend to cover, of course, in that kind of conversation. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And actually, I guess in your experience, most MSPs that have a conversation with you are operationally in a good place. So that they might not be 100% perfect, but you know, it tends to be the thing that msps get right first, isn't it? And then they start thinking about growth. Would you, would you recommend, for someone, let's say that was earlier in their journey, would you recommend that they did both of those things at once? So should. I'm not rephrasing my questions very well today, but should they, should they get the focus on the operations first, then the marketing, or should those two things be done at the same time, do you think? [00:09:17] Speaker B: In an ideal world you do everything at the same time? Of course. But realistically, for an MSP to be growing, you need to be doing something well initially because you've got to have clients to look after the people already in the door and that will give you some stable base. But I think the biggest challenge people have is relying on that as a long term strategy. And as you mentioned before, people often don't realize that it's a problem until six months too late. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there's always a huge lag in marketing. More so for msps, I think, than any other business because of the. How slow the sales cycle is. Okay, before we get on to, if you like, habits and systems and behaviors of successful MSPs, tell us a few more things that you see again based on 10 years of conversations, things that perhaps people say to you or the conversations they start and immediately your brain says, oh, I know what that's going to mean, or I know what consequence that's going to bring. [00:10:09] Speaker B: I think another problem that people struggle with is having a clear point of difference in a busy marketplace. They will appear, they will believe that they're different because they've again broken out from maybe a previous employee to create their new msp. And years down the line they feel that they're offering something that they saw as an opportunity. But in reality, their marketing doesn't translate that point of difference. It will be that we're the 247 reliable local support that everyone else is talking about. And the challenge of that, of course, is your prospects don't know that you created this business purely to fill the gap that you found. They just see what you're showing them, which is we're the same as everybody else. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You and I have often said, haven't we, that MSPs, people who are technicians, almost the last business they should start is an msp. It's almost like because if, if you can do the thing. In fact, in fact you, you and I experienced this and it's, it's funny when we were talking about bottlenecks, you know, you think how many years I was the bottleneck to growth in this business and this is my second business. It was like, you know, I'd. The last business I'd worked myself out, I wasn't there day to day. And then when you and I started this, I then became the bottleneck for a number of years until I had that, which I think was only, only a Covid time, you know, when I realized, oh, hang on a second, we need a bigger team here. This, I'm doing too much work. This is crazy. So, yeah, in a way, almost MSPs should, should not start an MSP. They should go and buy an architects firm or an engineering firm or something like that. Obviously that's not quite how it works, but you and I do see a difference when we work with, and there's probably a small handful of people we work with where the owner of the MSP is not an msp. And I'm thinking there's a couple of names in mind. I know that you'll be thinking exactly the same names and it's interesting that they have different problems. Their problems are more to do with delivery than they are to do with marketing and sales. They understand how to differentiate the business and how to position it. But for them, often it's actually getting the, get it, getting the tech work and trusting these senior tech people because they don't necessarily speak the, the same language. So I guess actually it's just different problems in different situations. Right, let's look at the positive stuff. So the MSPs, you talk to who you Jump on a call and things are going well and it could be we've been working with them for a number of years, it could be that things are going well and they want them to be even better. Tell me some of the trends, some of the traits that you see of common things that MSPs that are doing well, what do they do, how do they behave? [00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So again, some of these things of course are going to be the opposite to what we just talked about. So having a sales function, and sometimes that is an entire salesperson or at least a defined role that is responsible for bringing new business in or certainly nurturing those, leads to a point that of course the business owner may still be involved in the final sale and getting that deal over the line. But having somebody dedicated to sales, so it doesn't become a reactive referral based system, it's somebody dedicated to having a clear plan that systemized to bring in prospects. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. And what's the, what's the fear about bringing that person in the first time? Is, is, is the fear that I'm going to be spending all this money and it's going to be taking such a long time for me to get the return or other fears as well. [00:13:12] Speaker B: Again, this will depend on the cycle that people are in. I think if they're still in the almost a honeymoon period, no matter how long that lasts for that referrals are just coming in. There's almost not a need. They don't feel like there's a need today. But of course the MSPs that do well and keep doing well are the ones who address that before it becomes urgent. So if they, again, if they've got the right mindset and they're looking at that long term, if the last three clients you brought into your MSP were referral, referral, referral, you've got a bigger problem than you might realise. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. What other things do you see for successful MSPs? [00:13:45] Speaker B: Again, opposite to what we talked about a minute ago, but we're looking at they have a clear icp, an ideal client profile, they've got a good point of difference in the marketplace. It's very clear if you ask somebody to look at their website versus a competitor, that you can see what one does versus another. And again, this all helps the prospects who don't know you yet and don't know how great a job you can do make an easy choice initially when they're looking at who can fix the problem I, I've got today. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, you've mentioned mindset and attitude a lot. Do you think it's more about mindset and attitude than people realize? [00:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it definitely is. And a lot of the topics you cover on the podcast here is exactly that. Is making sure that you're not just getting comfortable with good enough. And it's saying, well, what else is this business for? And as you said right at the beginning, is it giving me the lifestyle that I want, rather than just a better lifestyle than I had in the previous job? Have I just created a different job, but now I'm the owner? It's making sure you're pushing to what's possible, not just what is better than last time. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah. You and I, over the years have swapped quite a lot of stories and books and things that we find quite interesting. I'm thinking David Goggins in particular. So for the MSPs who are listening to this or watching this on YouTube, if you've never heard of David Goggins, go and get his books. I can't quite remember what they're called, can you? I know he's written two or three. [00:15:03] Speaker B: Can't Hurt Me is one of them. [00:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Can't Hurt Me. That was his first book, actually, wasn't it? So David Goggins is not a normal human being. He's the only person who's ever done Marine training and Navy Seal training and completed both of them. And he's. His book is. It's like if it was fiction, if it was Jack Reacher, you'd be like, oh, this isn't real. But because it is real and his story's out there and he's done loads of content out there, he's quite an extraordinary guy. But a lot of his stuff he talks about is anybody can be a Navy SEAL if you've got the strength of. Strength of mind. You know, it's not about what you're doing with your body, it's about your mind's control over your body and pushing yourself to limits. And. And I find it quite fun to listen to extreme stories like that because it makes you realize that what we're doing in business is actually quite easy in that context. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, when you see these with other MSPs talking to businesses that are slightly bigger than them and they realize there's more here, I could do so much more. I've just got comfortable at a certain level and I now realize there could be a lot more going on. We have obviously our Facebook group for our members and people sharing their. What they're doing, and it almost like to bulb in other people as to, here's what's possible in my business if I push past that initial comfort. [00:16:12] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly that. And it's funny, actually, there's always someone who's doing better than you if you work in that way, you know, do we have on the podcast a few weeks ago someone who did $143 million exit from his MSP. So it's like, oh, okay, that's raised the bar there. That's, you know, now we've got to get a 200 million exit and then you start working up from there. But there's always someone that can inspire you and that's achieved more, which also shows you if that person can do it, then absolutely, you can do it as well, which is really cool. Right. I'm going to grab my Audible app. I'm going to redownload. Can't hurt me. Because as, as we've talked about this, I thought, oh, it's about four or five years since I've listened to that, and I really want to listen to that again. Ben, you're going to finish us off here on the podcast. As we said, this is three months till the end of 2026. So let's imagine I'm an MSP. I've jumped on a call with you, and I say to you, right, Ben, we are doing okay, but we, we're only doing okay. So the referrals have dried up. We don't really do a lot of marketing. We don't have a sales pipeline. We desperately need more money because I need to hire another technician, but I don't have the cash to hire that technician. What kind of questions would you ask me or what kind of recommendations would you make to me? [00:17:19] Speaker B: Okay, this is a good one. Without being able to dive in directly to the questions, of course, but we'd explore what you're. Who you're trying to get in front of, first of all. So who makes a good prospect for you and work backwards that way. So if you've got an idea of your ideal clients, then we can build a plan as to what sort of marketing is going to work to get in front of those sort of people. The other thing we'd look at, of course, is what your current marketing is saying about you. And from what you've said, and this is quite typical when I speak to MSP owners is they're not doing much yet, and often that means they've grown organically over the years and now something has to change. Either they feel there's more out there or worst case, they've lost a big client and they desperately need to try and, you know, regain that revenue. So we'd first of all look at your marketing plan. Make sure you've got a clear systemized plan that doesn't rely on on discipline and motivation for it to happen. It's just got a system that turns up week in, week out. No matter what you're doing, you've got a clear icp, as we mentioned, you're going after the right sort of prospects and then you can start working with fun things like monthly recurring revenue and that you're building that into your plan. So again, it's not relying on hope that you happen to sell something because when asked for it, you've got a plan. Of coursely, business reviews and you'll sit down talking to people about that. And ultimately that's going to be the initial things that we look at to move that forward. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Amazing advice. Thank you so much, Ben. So for those people listening or watching this right now, what is the best way to get in touch with you? [00:18:43] Speaker B: Well, just like we did there, Paul, we could have a call in real life or we could ask you those real questions and find out about your MSP. The URL to find that is mspmarketingedge.com Ben and we can, whether you're a member of the marketing program or you're not at the marketing edge, we can have that conversation, find out what you're doing with your MSP and what we'd recommend you do to push in to that next level of growth. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Coming up, coming up next week, Next week we're back to our usual format and we're going a little bit Spider Man. We're going to talk about Spider Man's origin story and how they that makes him a compelling character you want to follow. And you know what, you've got an origin story as well. How did you become an msp? Let's explore how you can turn that into a marketing asset in next week's show. See you then for MSPs around the world. Round the World, the MSP Marketing podcast with Paul Green.